Portugal has produced wine for millennia, but fully understanding it can be challenging. To those of us who don’t speak the native language, the regions and indigenous grape varieties may seem a little perplexing. Fortunately, for oenophiles, the wine is certainly not.
This week, we’re highlighting the amazing world of Portuguese wine. What offerings are you familiar with beyond Port, the fortified wine produced in the Douro Valley? If your answer is not too many, you’re not alone.
You May Also Like: 8 Vinho Verde Bottles to Drink Right Now
In this episode, Mike DeSimone—author, Wine Enthusiast writer at large and Spanish wine reviewer—sits down with John Sumners to discuss one of the oldest wine-producing countries in the world.
Sumners is a freelance wine writer and California and Portugal wine specialist based in Lisbon. He is also the author of There’s More Than Port In Portugal: The Unpretentious Guide to Portuguese Wine.
Listen as Sumners shares details of his career before wine writing; the famed sommelier who inadvertently helped him decide to leave that career and get into wine; why he decided to move to Portugal; his favorite regions for Portuguese dry red wines and his favorite out-of-the-box pairings.
Episode Transcript
Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human transcribers, and may contain errors. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting.
Speakers: Jacy Topps, John Sumners, Mike DeSimone
Jacy Topps 00:09
Hello, and welcome to the Wine Enthusiast podcast. You’re serving them drinks culture, and the people who drive it. I’m Jacy Topps. This week we’re highlighting the amazing world of Portuguese wine. What regions and wines are we familiar with from Portugal outside of Port, the fortified wine produced in the Douro Valley? Well, if I’m being honest, I’d have to admit, I’m not too familiar with wines from Portugal. So, I’m super excited that author and Wine Enthusiast Spanish wine reviewer Mike DeSimone sat down with John Sumners to discuss one of the oldest wine producing countries in the world. John is a freelance wine writer in California and Portugal wine specialist based in Lisbon. He is also the author of there’s more than port in Portugal, the unpretentious guide to Portuguese wine. So, listen on as John shares what career he had before wine writing; the famed sommelier who inadvertently helped him decide to leave that career; why he decided to move to Portugal; his favorite regions for Portuguese dry red wines, and his favorite out-of-the box food pairings.
Jacy Topps 01:25
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Mike DeSimone 02:35
Hi, this is Mike De Simone. I am a writer-at-large for Wine Enthusiast magazine. I cover the Spanish beat, and today I am talking to John Sumners, who is a wine expert who wrote a book called There’s More Than Port in Portugal: The Unpretentious Guide to Portuguese Wine. John is a wine industry veteran writer, educator consultant, and a Portuguese and California wine specialist based in Lisbon, Portugal. His roles have ranged from working the floor in the Manhattan fine dining Battlefield, managing buying and marketing for San Francisco wine retailers and serving as a featured contributor for various international publications. Writing for various international publications. That sounds really important. Hey, John, welcome! How are you?
John Sumners 03:26
I’m great. Thanks, Mike. Pleasure to be here.
Mike DeSimone 03:29
I cover Spain for Wine Enthusiast. And I know that you know, you, you live at least part time it seems in Portugal and the Portuguese wine expert, but I know that both Spain and Portugal are expat hotspots.
John Sumners 03:44
Oh, yes, they are. Yeah, they’ve really are.
Mike DeSimone 03:46
And I guess there’s, you know, both countries obviously have the, you know, pros, cons reasons to be there, you know, reasons to avoid at cetera, et cetera. But it’s kind of I think it’d be interesting offline to just kind of talk about our experiences in both countries. However, staying on topic. Yes. Tell me how did you how did you get into why you’re this? We look at your bio and your you know, your your wine expert, you’re specializing in a couple of different things. What brought you to wine?
John Sumners 04:14
You know it was it was really kind of organic and just a natural beginning. Me and a buddy of mine, a guy by the name of Jeremy Bran, he’s not in the business. But he and I used to explore and obsess over whiskey. That was the initial gateway, and he lives in Lexington, Kentucky. So, you know, he’s got access to all kinds of crazy yeah. And then that kind of segway into wine for me because I love a complex subject. And I was just constantly fascinated and wanted to know more, like there was so much out there to learn.
Mike DeSimone 04:52
Okay, and I know that so you have I know besides this the blurb on your book I you know, I took a look at your bio. I when it says that at one point you worked under a superstar sommelier, a winemaker working in a restaurant in midtown Manhattan while you were pursuing a career in opera. Can you tell us the name of the restaurant and who was that superstar somm?
John Sumners 06:51
Yeah, moderately. I mean, the fact that I had this gig in between gigs, that in and of itself, tells you well, I wasn’t a superstar, right. But I had plenty of gigs. And they, I had a great deal worked out with a very generous GM there. And as soon as I’d get a contract, I just let him know when the contract was in for the duration. And he let me go do my gig wherever it was. And I’d come back, you know, two or three months later, and come right back into my position of seniority. It was a pretty sweet deal.
Mike DeSimone 07:48
Cool, that’s great. You’re, you know, you’re lucky. And I know, you know, living in New York City, and living I mean, an awful lot of my friends are, you know, are actors and our singers, and, you know, having that situation where you can be flexible, and you can actually simultaneously build two careers, is that really, really is being in a wonderful place. And it’s, you’re, you’re very lucky to have had that situation. And then I know that so at some point, you left New York and you were working in California at the Napa Valley Wine exchange. So how did how did you get other than, you know, the wisest response? I took an airplane. Alright, drove everything. How did you get from New York to California, and start working as the California Portugal expert at Napa Valley Wine exchange?
John Sumners 08:39
Well, you know, I took a road trip across the country stopped all over the West. You know, all the great sights went to Yellowstone, Black Hills, Badlands Tetons, you know, all that amazing stuff. And took some time to do that a few weeks and then and then landed in San Francisco and very, very shortly after, was hired as the as the GM of Napa Valley winery exchange. Now that place is it’s still there. And it’s it’s a renowned little boutique that specializes almost exclusively in small producers of California. And there’s a gentleman there by the name of Don Gillette, that is, yeah, he’s not widely known. But if you’re in the California wine industry, and you’re a small producer, or you work in California retail, you know, this guy. He is a local legend, and you can still walk in there and asked to talk to Don and he’ll regale you with unbelievable amounts of California wine history for an hour.
Mike DeSimone 09:40
Okay. And they had so did they, they had Portuguese wines that they sold there as well?
John Sumners 09:46
No, actually no, after several years working there. I mean, gosh, I guess I was there about six, seven years I think working with Don, and then moved on to K and L Wine Merchants. Okay. All right. Yeah. and started working with the Spain, Portugal buyer there. Eric Walker was paired up with him. And, you know, Kirk is, don’t get me wrong, his Portuguese knowledge is phenomenal. He’s brilliant, but his home turf, his real passion is Spain. And I thought, well, I’ll be the Portugal guy. And I just dove in and started obsessively learning everything I could, and tasting everything, I could when it came to Portugal.
Mike DeSimone 10:28
So, what is What’s your connection with Portugal? You live in? You live in Lisbon now? Correct?
John Sumners 10:32
Yeah, that’s correct. So COVID hit and turned everything upside down for everyone. And my partner and I, Catherine, we had been we had visited Portugal previously and spent a couple weeks just traveling around the country went to several different places. And we’re just head over heels in love with it. And we thought, you know, if if we ever if we ever go expat, this is where we’re going. Okay. And so yeah, that came to fruition, we decided, well, let’s, let’s do it. And, you know, took the leap and
arrived in, in Portugal in, I think it was October of 2020. And continued my obsessive study. And, you know, now that I had boots on the ground, I had access to everything. So just tasting everything, talking to winemakers, talking to revered retailers, and just truly absorbing anything I could.
Mike DeSimone 11:25
So you got to I’m just trying to think so you got so you actually got there. Obviously, if you got there on October 2020. You got there the minute they opened the country, to foreigners.
John Sumners 11:36
That’s it. We were actually supposed to get there earlier. Why, but our visas were stuck in limbo. So, we actually, we, we decided, well, what are we going to do? And so we were kind of, quote, stuck in the Highlands of Scotland for a few months, which was not too shabby. Because everything, everyone was very respectful and keeping distance wearing masks. And we were able to just explore the beauty of Scotland for a few months while we waited for our abuses to be officially approved.
Mike DeSimone 12:09
Right? Yeah, that’s not a terrible place to be especially considering that I mean, at the beginning of the pandemic, you know, we were stuck in New York City, which was just a frightening thing. And living in a, you know, in a very big apartment building and to go anywhere to get groceries, just to move your body and go for a walk. You had to get into an elevator with other people and other people. So, I think you were very blessed and lucky. But so then I mean, so you wound up in Portugal, you were there for a couple of years. Obviously, in your previous jobs you really had you know, especially at KL it sounds like you really had delved into Portugal. And now let’s fast forward and you’ve written this book. There’s More Than Port in Portugal. What was what made you decide to write your book?
John Sumners 12:52
So in my, in the process of my education of learning and teaching myself about Portuguese wine, I kept thinking, You know what I wish there was a kind of comprehensive, but to the point reference guide that I could use as a touchstone throughout this journey. And I wanted something that kind of encapsulated the entirety of the Portuguese wine world but did it in a kind of a concise and unfussy way, and nothing like that existed. Now, there are other great books written about Portuguese wine, and they’re very, very comprehensive. And there are other books that, you know, just touch on a few things and do a nice job with that. But I wanted the combination of comprehensive, but also, very, to the point, and also relatable, and that nothing existed, and I kept talking about it and talking about it. And finally, Katherine was apparently fed up with, because she said, You need to stop talking, and start writing.
Mike DeSimone 13:51
Wow. And, you know, that’s what we all need in our lives. And I do love what you’re right, when you say relatable, I know. And I’m just, you know, if I start flipping through here to find to find something, we’ll have moments of silence, which, which no one rule will really enjoy it all. But um, there’s like some really funny little like zingers and one liners and you do keep it there’s, there’s a lot of it’s a, it’s a small but mighty book. I appreciate that. There’s a lot of information in there, but I know that there’s also when you’re, you know, when you’re writing a book, there’s a lot of decision making that has to be made. So how did you decide like, why did you say like, let me lay it out and let me divide it into like three distinct sections, bubbly, still dry, and fortified sweet?
John Sumners 14:33
Well, in general, when writing this, you know, if I’m writing for a publication, you kind of have to stay in the lines of the kind of generalized voice and generalized rules that that publication wants, you know, you got to you got to obey the editor. And with this, I, I could just, I could do it how I wanted to do it, and I could write with my I voice and how my brain understands things. And my brain looks at things. And, you know, the way I understand wine is different categories of styles. And so I thought, that’s the way I want to break it down, because it’s very simple for me to understand it that way.
Mike DeSimone 15:18
You know what that makes and that makes a lot of sense. Because I think I mean, a lot of books, or a lot of wine books are written geographically. And as you know, as an author, myself as the co author of six books, and the most recent one is called white wine, you know, kind of like the like the question that everybody always asks, it’s like, why did you decide to write about grapes? And it’s like, because everybody else writes about regions, you look at every other major wine book, whether it’s the Wine Bible, the world Atlas of Wine, and you know, and I could go on. They all are written geographically. And we’ve had to take 50 grapes, or regional blend styles and write about them individually. And of course, you have to talk about where they come from, but not not just to, like, you know, break it out by country, but to break it out by grape. So I love that you, you know that you kind of said I want to do this in the way that makes sense. Talking about bubbly I was in Bairrada last year for the first time. And I hope I pronounced that right. And it is so it’s actually shocking to people when I say yeah, I was judging a sparkling wine competition in Portugal. And people are like, they’re always surprised like they make sparkling wine in Portugal?
John Sumners 16:31
Yes, they make brilliant sparkling wine and Portugal. Oh my gosh, you’re talking about a country that consumes more seafood per capita than any other country in Europe, of course, there’s great sparkling wine. Bairrada is a special place. I mean, its traditional method, you’re dealing with indigenous varieties. And because it’s right there on the coast, it has something that, you know, Champagne doesn’t have is that that coastal, that salty, minerally coastal influence that comes in. And it has the chalky soils that has the sandy soils, but really, it’s the ocean that kind of sets the tone of these wines and adds that salty spice to the finish of them.
Mike DeSimone 17:14
Yeah, it was just I mean, it was really amazing to be there. The funny thing is, I was there judging the wine competition. And so basically, we were tasting wine all morning, and then in the afternoons we would do winery visits. And I didn’t even realize until we left that we were anywhere near the coast, you know, nobody, there was nobody I said, Hey, let’s go to the beach.
John Sumners 17:34
Oh my gosh, yeah, you’re probably like, you know, maybe, gosh, maybe like a 10-minute drive or something.
Mike DeSimone 17:42
Exactly! So if there is so look, if people if someone picks up your book, right, and there’s only one region if readers take away only one region from your book that they want to explore in depth, maybe visit what region would you hope it would be?
John Sumners 18:00
Oh, man, you’re really putting me in a spot here. Mike. I, you’re asking me to pick like my favorite pet.
Mike DeSimone 18:07
Okay, let’s say so let’s say let’s go to either American or British readers who although there’s a lot of great wines from Portugal, there’s a somewhat limited supply of the of the regions that do get exported. So let’s just say for someone in, you know, an English speaker in the US or the UK, thinking about what wines get heavily exported, what region would you hope people would explore
John Sumners 18:36
That they can get? Okay. Yeah, I see. You know, I think Douro is wonderful, but it’s kind of the marquee it’s it’s the Napa, so to speak. So more and more, you’re starting to speaking of Bairrada, you’re starting to see more and more Bairrada out there. And I think people should check this wine out because, you know, you think of the Iberian Peninsula, you think of wines that are especially the red wines. You think of ripe, big, powerful wines. But Portugal I mean, it’s a sliver of land along the coast. It’s a relatively cool country for where it is longitudinally or latitude. I don’t know what what are still in your graphical Yeah, let’s let’s call it that.
John Sumners 19:24
So in Bairrada, you’ve got you have several different grapes but you’ve really got the mark key grape there The King is is Baga, B A G A and Baga is really versatile, great, but if you identify it in a classical red wine form, it comes across as somewhere between Nebbiolo like your Barolo or Barbaresco and Pinot Noir. You know, it has that kind of bright ripping acidity and gripping tannin, but it has a little more soft fruit around that structure. It can kind of see the More Pinot Noir end of the spectrum. So it’s a little more slightly more cuddly in its youth. I think they’re fascinating wines. They age forever. And they’re also incredible food wines. So, find some find some bicara, bi, R, R A, D, A, you’ll start seeing more and more.
Mike DeSimone 20:19
Okay, that’s, that is that’s good to know. So, speaking of you actually mentioned, the Douro Valley, which is home of the famous port wines. And now of course, this is not something brand new, but for you know, for quite some time now we’re seeing a lot more dry wines coming out of that region. How did that come about? When did producers start turning from making all port to making dry wines as well?
John Sumners 20:45
Well, there’s always kind of a tiny underground trickle of dry wines that were made there, but not in any real commercial volume. What really put it on the map is this a specific vintage of a specific wine was the 1952 Barca Velha. And it’s since become a cult wine. It’s one of Portugal’s most expensive wines, and they only make it in the very best vintages. But in 1952, this dry red wine from Douro was tremendously received. And that kind of set the precedent and it made people realize, oh, Douro can make really great red wine to like dry table wine. So more and more producers started doing that. And now it’s, it’s a good mix between port and and dry red wines. I mean, more of the dry red wines tend to be produced a little further to the east in Douro Superior, but you still see quite a few made in in the middle region, the SEMA quarter Whoo, and, and even in the lower regions. So it’s, it’s really it’s continuing to grow because fortified sweet wines are currently out of fashion.
Mike DeSimone 21:59
Yeah, that is, I think, I just think, unfortunately, worldwide, we’re seeing that. Although, you know, there are people in the market who love their sweet wine, but there is there’s a lot less port is being drunk. So you’ve got you know, in the Douro Valley, as you just said, people are making more dry wine. And because there’s less turn being drunk, we’re seeing a lot more high-quality white Bordeaux. We’re also seeing a lot more in Hungary from Tokai because people are not drinking those sweet wines in the quantities that they used to. We’re seeing a lot more dry for men. You feel as you just said, a lot of it is just kind of winemaking necessity. But it also points to the fact that they’ve just got this incredible terroir, these beautiful, you know, old vine vineyards. They’ve got the know-how, and there’s no reason not to make credible red wines. And now we’re going to switch to another region Vinho Verde, It straddles two sections in your book, bubbly and dry. I feel like Vinho Verde is probably one of the categories of Portuguese wines that people in the states have access to and know about and have heard of. So if I’m buying a bottle of that, how do I know if it’s fizzy? Or if it’s flat?
John Sumners 23:13
You know, that’s a great question. And I have a complex answer for you, unfortunately. So Vinho Verde, it’s a region but it’s also been the victim of its own kind of mass market product success. This this kind of fun, fizzy, easy, inexpensive style, but there’s a whole other side to Vinho Verde which is still wines that can go these are aromatic white wines that can go toe to toe with the best that Alsace or Germany or Austria can produce. So yeah, so there is this complication of like, what am I getting here? And there’s not a perfect answer to it. Unfortunately. The best rule of thumb though, and what you’re gonna find more often than not is if the bottle just says Vinho Verde, and it doesn’t have a variety it’ll labeling on it, you know, a particular grape, or it doesn’t have a regional labeling on it, you can bet it’s probably the light fun fizzy stuff, okay. And if it’s got a variety on the label, you know, if it’s telling you this is Alvarinho , or this is Loureiro , or this is a vessel and additionally, if it has a sub region on it, then more often than not, that’s going to be a more serious in quotes. Serious still wine.
Mike DeSimone 23:26
Okay, all right. That’s a that’s a that’s a kind of a good guideline. I think that’s a good rule of thumb. It sort of reminds me that, you know, in a certain way of like Riesling. A lot of people steer completely away, because they don’t know when they buy a Riesling, whether it’s going to be sweet or dry. So, they just stay away from it at all. And I do know that Vina I’m going to pronounce it correctly this time, Vinho Verd. I’ve got that, you know the Spanish pronunciation where, you know, there’s a there’s a vowel there, I’m going to say it.
John Sumners 25:09
No, trust me, I get it, it took me so long to learn this language.
Mike DeSimone 25:13
So, which literally translates to green wine. And people expect this greenish very young wine. So, what is what is actually the reality of Vinho Verd? What, what do I get when I open a bottle?
John Sumners 25:29
Well, you know, it’s, it’s with the fun fizzy stuff that you know, this is great stuff for the beach, for picnic, for backyard cookout. But the serious stuff, you know, you’re, it’s really an exploration of these different varieties in Vinho Verd. And even though the name is a little bit confusing, because it I mean, it means literally green wine. But what are they talking about? And there is some mixed information on that. We’re not exactly sure. It may have been that you know, it’s one of the greenest parts of Portugal, It gets a lot of rain. And so maybe that’s it. Everything ripens more slowly there. So the the grapes are, are greener, longer, and often they’re harvested a little bit earlier. And when they have a little bit more of a green hue to them, as opposed to golden. So that’s kind of the short answer to that. But Vinho Verd it’s a complex place. And there’s a lot of different sub regions to it. And it just kind of gets over simplified into this mass market product. And I think that’s going to be a very exciting thing for people to explore as more and more of these serious Vinho Verd bottling start coming to the export market.
Mike DeSimone 26:49
Yeah. You know, and actually in the book in White Wine, I mean, Portugal has an incredibly high number and you probably like sort of know it, the ballpark off the top of your head of indigenous grape. Oh, yeah. The only so we covered Alvarinho, as a grape and we covered you know, Alboreto of Merino in one chapter. And then we also covered as a regional style because it can be made as a blend, or with different varieties. We covered you know Vinho Verde as well. So I hate to have paid, you know, short shrift to all of the other great Portuguese grapes. But, you know, you did it, you did a great job. You know, giving them love in your book. We talked a little bit about food and seafood. What are some of your favorite food pairings with the Portuguese wines that you’re drinking?
John Sumners 27:36
Oh, gosh, so I’m a just a nut job of a locavore. So I love all the traditional Portuguese things. If you’ll humor me, let me ramble off a few dishes that I really like and the pairings thereof. So there’s a particular dish that’s called the Amêijoas à Bulhão Pato. That’s a mouthful, and the last word is very confusing. Because Pato means duck. But this dish has nothing to do with duck. Okay. It is essentially just steamed clams. So steamed clams in a pot with white wine, olive oil, butter, garlic, cilantro, and then you eat the clams and then you sop up all that wonderful sauce with bread. And you pair that with an Alvarinho from Vinho Verde far northern region of Vinho Verde called Melgaço. That’s absolutely brilliant stuff.
Mike DeSimone 28:29
You’re what you are making me hungry. I think everybody can be salivating right now.
John Sumners 28:34
That’s the idea, Mike. So another favorite of mine, Katherine and I, we always love to get this. We sometimes make it at home, we sometimes get it out. But it’s called Arroz de Pato. And it just means duck rice. And it’s very simple. It’s essentially, it’s duck paella. Okay. Oh, wow. And you pair that with the with, like I said, red wine from Bairrada or quite frankly, any of the red wines from those regions right along the coast. Whether it’s a red Vinho Verde. Yes, there is red Vinho Verde . Wow. Or it’s Bairrada red or it’s a red from leash boy or it’s a read from Setubal. These all pair brilliantly with this with this duck rice. Third, I’d probably say one of my favorite things to do is every Thanksgiving we have kind of an expat Thanksgiving here in Lisbon and invite our friends from Berlin to come down. And we do the full Thanksgiving spread, the whole nine yards. I get my Midwestern classics, and Catherine gets her her Northeastern classics and we’d like to pair that with white wine from Alentejo because it’s originally a Fantasia we think of it as a red wine region. You know, it’s a hotter region. But historically, traditionally, this is a white wine region. And the white wines from they’re beautiful, they’re luscious and opulent but have all kinds of character to them. They’re a lot of fun to play with and they go tremendously well with A full Thanksgiving spread.
Jacy Topps 30:02
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Mike DeSimone 31:04
I actually feel like you know when we get every November when we get those articles, you know all the articles that everyone writes on all the different websites? Yeah, I’m like what, you know what pairs with Thanksgiving, I feel like Alentejo wines I feel like, like those are presented a lot. And I have to say, I know that you started out, you know, in your career wanting to be an opera singer. But I have to tell you the way you’ve described pairings right now, I think that you were probably an amazing waiter.
John Sumners 31:32
Well, that was my favorite part about it. I mean, there’s that. I mean, I think any of us that have worked in a restaurant have like, what I jokingly call restaurant PTSD, where you still have like anxiety, nightmares about it. Right. But the parts of it that I cherished, I mean, besides the camaraderie and kind of being in the trenches with your people was being at the table with a guest that was really excited to just put their trust in your hands, and let you guide them and talk with them and say, well, what do you usually like? Do you want to do something that’s more exploratory? Do you want to? Do you want to go with an old faithful, but maybe a different vintage or a different producer of a region that you love? I mean, that was the real joy of it. So I mean, I don’t think necessarily I’m, well, I think maybe I’m good at that simply because I love doing it.
Mike DeSimone 32:22
Right. Right. But just you’re just you’re that when you describe the dishes and why the wine works with it. I was like, Wow, this job can really, if he were my waiter, I would be or my or the beverage director at a restaurant I was eating at I would be, I would just be so happy and so excited. And I would take your advice. So for people who don’t live in Portugal, for those of us, for example, who live in New York City, and as much as I love to eat at home, it’s been kind of hot out and I might be getting some takeout. What are some of your like, out of the box nontraditional pairings with Portuguese wines? Just the couple?
John Sumners 32:58
Yeah. Do you want something way out there because I have one? Okay, go ahead. So, so often just as a general paring concept, we don’t think of pairing fortified wines or sweet wines with the main meal. We think of those as okay, it’s a it’s a dessert wine or it goes with dessert, or it’s an aperitif. It’s not something to pair with anything, right? Anything savory, but you look at you look at American cuisine. I mean, we’ve got we’ve got General Tso’s chicken. I mean that’s it’s an American Chinese classic and you have that savory salty chicken with this kind of sweet honey glaze on it. You’ve got you know Americana classic pork chops and applesauce barbecue I mean barbecue. You’ve got the smoky savory meaty, and then you know you put like a Kansas City style sauce on that and that’s that molasses rich style of sauce and the way that savory meaty, salty plays with sweet is great. And pairing a glass of Madeira or a glass of Moscatel de Setúbal or a glass of white Port with a pork chop my goodness it is divine.
Mike DeSimone 34:15
Yeah, those all I mean those again you’re making me super hungry but those are those are all excellent, excellent options and choices. Now you actually just you talked a little bit about white Port, so we talked in the beginning about like you know Portugal being this like super-hot expat destination also vacation destination, especially since now United flies direct from Newark to Aeroporto and they also fly direct to Madeira as well. So but everybody who comes back from Porto comes back raving about white Port. It’s made in tiny quantities. It’s mostly for domestic consumption or it’s sold into the UK. Do you think that we’re going to be seeing more white port in the The US market?
John Sumners 35:01
You can absolutely count on it. I think this is a category A style of Portuguese fortified wine that is just about to explode on the international scene. You know, it’s made in all kinds of different styles even you know, there’s there’s kind of your dryer’s style. There’s your sweeter style, you have different general age statements like 1020 30 year made in a tawny style. You have more fruity kind of, quote, Ruby style, if it was a red port, and it’s tremendously versatile. Some of the more inexpensive bottlings make a great base for a cocktail, like a Port and tonic with a squeeze of lime and a sprig of mint. And you’re set for a hot day.
Mike DeSimone 35:46
I love I actually love a Port and tonic. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It’s super hot. In New York. I feel like there I feel like there’s a Port and tonic. And in my future today, and your near future. Besides Port, what are some of the other sweet styles of Portuguese wine? You kind of you touched on them in the pairing. But tell tell me a you know about Setúbal and Madeira.
John Sumners 36:11
Yeah, so, so that’s really those three are really the royal fortified trifecta of Portuguese wine. And Portugal is probably the most prominent country on earth for just those styles of wine in general. And, you know, it came about through kind of necessity it was, you know, these wines were fortified and left a little bit sweet. Therefore, because they had to travel, they had to be durable. And in these in the holds of ships going out across the globe. So yeah, you have Madeira, which is a fascinating style. I mean, basically, if you took a tawny port, and you very, very slowly cooked it over the course of years, just that kind of a low heat. And this renders it indestructible. And so it became this, this wonderful beverage for those in hotter climates, like in the Americas, and it became very popular in the US. It will even before it was the US. Americans were drinking in the 18th century; I think like over 90% of all Madeira. So it takes on these oxidative and kind of cooked nutty flavors, but it always has this beautiful bright acidity to it. And then Moscatel de Setúbal, this is so overlooked. This is magnificent stuff. And basically no one outside of Portugal or that’s into wine in a very serious way knows about it.
Mike DeSimone 37:42
Yeah, I actually was exposed to it as you know, as a wine judge. One year I sat on a sweet wine panel.
John Sumners 37:49
Yeah, yeah. And I mean, how does it sit with you in that experience?
Mike DeSimone 37:54
I mean, I mean, they were just amazing. And it was it just kind of it just opened up, you know, my my mind and my eyes and my tastebuds to this incredible style of wine that even kind of you know, I’m I’m at the level where I’m, you know, I’m judging International Wine competitions. And I’ve never heard of Moscatel de Setúbal.
John Sumners 38:14
It’s, it’s, it’s wild to me. And I mean, maybe I should keep my mouth shut because it keeps it inexpensive. You’re not gonna be able to afford it. I know. I know. What am I doing to myself? But yeah, it’s it’s wonderful stuff. And you know, it’s mostly made from variety here called Moscatel Graúdo. Which is our old friend in the Mediterranean based in Moscatel de Alexandria. Made its way everywhere. And one of the oldest grapes in the world, in fact, exactly, exactly. So this it’s like a time machine. I love it. It’s a style that’s wildly out of fashion right now. But, you know, all fashion comes back around eventually. I mean, we were wearing bell bottoms in the 90s. Right? You remember something like that, right?
Mike DeSimone 39:01
I don’t know. I’m not a tall person. So I don’t care. I don’t care how wide pants legs get? I’m wearing my narrow path.
John Sumners 39:11
You know what, me too. I’m about five, six on a good day.
Mike DeSimone 39:15
And on the other hand, though, when it comes to wine, I’m an equal opportunity drinker. You know, I drink dry. I drink sweet. I drink still. I drink bubbly. I drink fortified. So it sounds like I’m going to have to do a lot more exploration of Portuguese wines. Fantastic. Sure. So besides Portuguese wines, and I know when you live somewhere for you know, like, I we have a house in the south of Spain. And we can get wines from elsewhere in Europe, but it’s not super easy. So besides Portuguese wines, what do you drink?
John Sumners 39:47
I mean, you know, kind of goes with my locavore thinking. When I’m in Portugal, I’m drinking probably 99% Portuguese wine. Although everywhere rare once in a while. aisle, there are a couple of shops that I don’t know how they get them, but they get a couple of small producers from California and Washington. And I’ve found some, some bottles of single vineyard. Andrew Will, from, from Washington, from Columbia Valley. Wow. So that’s always kind of a fun treat to take me back to my old stomping grounds of the West Coast in general. And I love, love. And this is an obsession that didn’t start with Northern Rhone. It started with Central Coast California. I love cool climates Syrah, yeah, anytime I can get my hands on, on any kind of that kind of black fruited but still bright, spicy, peppery herbal characteristic from a cool climate Syrah. Like from Santa Barbara, great producers, they’re like Melville. I am all about it.
Mike DeSimone 40:52
Cool. That’s that sounds like, you know, it sounds like you’ve got a, you know, a broad palate, but you know, what you like, which is really what, what’s important when we’re drinking wine? So is there anything, anything that we’ve missed? Was there something that you were dying to talk about, that we didn’t hit on?
John Sumners 41:12
Well, I think what I’m most passionate about right now is communicating with people who might not feel invited into the wine world. You know, so often, it’s a complex topic. So it has a somewhat coded language and a proprietary lexicon that we use. And I mean, you and I both understand that there’s, there’s a reason for that complexity. But it tends to be when we’re reaching out, it tends to be a little bit unhelpful. So like, like you and Jeff do so brilliantly. Instead of standing at the castle gate, and saying, in order to get in here, you need to know this, this, this, this, this, this, and this, just like you do, I want to go out and meet the people where they are and say, I understand what you that you want to get in the castle. But you’re scared about it. You’re scared away by all the complex lexicon and everything. But let me help you let me guide you let me walk with you. And let’s have a conversation about it. And I think it’s so important that we do that. And especially with Portuguese wine, it’s so complicated in and of itself, because it is its own kind of proprietary thing with its own indigenous varieties. But being more inviting, and meeting people where they are, as opposed to, as opposed to being the gatekeepers, I think is important. And I admire you guys for that. And I hope that I’m doing that as well.
Mike DeSimone 42:43
Thank you, you know, absolutely. Just having talked to you today and having read through your book, I really do feel that you are doing exactly what you are stating you set out to do. And I actually love that metaphor of the castle gate. And instead of saying, like, you can come in here, going out and like you know, and talking to people. I really, I really do like that a lot. Now, when we just really quick we’re gonna go in a moment. But when we were emailing back and forth setting this up, you actually said like, you know, I need to be prepared. If you’re gonna ask me about Madonna or Cindy.
John Sumners 43:17
Well, I’m in trouble now, aren’t I?
Mike DeSimone 43:20
We’re not going there. Because let’s face it, you know, the people who listen to podcasts are a lot younger. They probably don’t know who those people are. Christina? Oh my gosh. Come on Britney verse. Christina, where are you?
John Sumners 43:34
Oh, I’m with I’m with whoever’s got the pipes as a former singer, Christina, and to your earlier question. Cindy, for the pipes.
Mike DeSimone 43:45
There you go. Okay, uh, you know, agree. There you go. All right. John Sumners. Great talking to you today. I really enjoyed chatting with you about wine in general and about your journey in wine. And I actually, I’ve kind of breezed through it. But I really look forward to getting more of an in depth look at your amazing book. There’s more than port in Portugal. So John, thank you very much for being with us today.
John Sumners 44:13
Thank you, Mike. It’s been an absolute honor.
Mike DeSimone 44:15
All right, take care.
Jacy Topps 44:21
Portugal has been producing wine for millennia. But for some it doesn’t come without as complexities. For us who don’t speak the language, the regions and the indigenous grape varieties may seem a little perplexing. Fortunately, for wine lovers, the wine is certainly not. From Red ports to white Ports, sweet styles to dry, wines from Portugal are dynamic and incredibly food friendly. So maybe it’s time me step off the beaten path and reach for wine outside of Port, because Portuguese wines are some of the most approachable and diverse wines in the world. What are your thoughts? If you liked today’s episode? sewed, we’d love to read your reviews and hear what you think. You can email us your comments and your questions at podcast at wine enthusiast.net. And hey, why not tell your wine loving friends to check us out to remember, you can subscribe to this podcast on Apple, Google, Spotify and anywhere else you listen to podcasts. You can also go to wine enthusiast.com backslash podcasts. For more episodes and transcripts. I’m Jacy Topps. Thanks for listening.
Published: August 23, 2023
